Phase detector for huge jitter ??

5hinka · Apr 21, 2004

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

Jim Thompson · Apr 21, 2004

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:48:15 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl>
wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Tim Wescott · Apr 21, 2004

5hinka wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

(a) divide both signals by N and use a 3-state phase detector.
(b) make an extended state phase detector.

Both of these methods are detailed in "Phase-Locked Loop Circuit Design"
by Dan Wolaver, Prentice-Hall 1991.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

5hinka · Apr 21, 2004

Użytkownik "Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:ih6d80tp5je4djjbel7arquapcnur003m9@4ax.com...

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:48:15 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl
wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works
only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is
up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

Are you saying you have jitter that is up to 10-20*T?

How could you ever define that as "phase-locked"?

IEEE is saying that jitter in 2Mbit signal (HDB3) can have jitter up to at
least 5 T is jitter 10-20*T isnt very big.
Greetings

Jim Thompson · Apr 21, 2004

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:11:49 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl>
wrote:

Użytkownik "Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:ih6d80tp5je4djjbel7arquapcnur003m9@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:48:15 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl
wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works
only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is
up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

Are you saying you have jitter that is up to 10-20*T?

How could you ever define that as "phase-locked"?

IEEE is saying that jitter in 2Mbit signal (HDB3) can have jitter up to at
least 5 T is jitter 10-20*T isnt very big.
Greetings

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Tim Wescott · Apr 21, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:48:15 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl
wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

Are you saying you have jitter that is up to 10-20*T?

How could you ever define that as "phase-locked"?

...Jim Thompson

FM transmitters that use phase-locked signal generation can have
phase-locked loops with this much phase difference.

NRZ digital signals that have gone through a number of repeaters can
have short-term jitter that is this severe.

You define it as "phase-locked" if the average phase and frequency of
the locked and input signals match, and if your phase detector never
actually looses track.

See the reference in my other thread. I took the class from the author,
he really knows what he's talking about.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Jim Thompson · Apr 21, 2004

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:34:13 -0700, Tim Wescott
<tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:48:15 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl
wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

Are you saying you have jitter that is up to 10-20*T?

How could you ever define that as "phase-locked"?

...Jim Thompson

FM transmitters that use phase-locked signal generation can have
phase-locked loops with this much phase difference.

NRZ digital signals that have gone through a number of repeaters can
have short-term jitter that is this severe.

You define it as "phase-locked" if the average phase and frequency of
the locked and input signals match, and if your phase detector never
actually looses track.

See the reference in my other thread. I took the class from the author,
he really knows what he's talking about.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Tim Wescott · Apr 21, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:34:13 -0700, Tim Wescott
tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote:

-- snip --
Classic phase detectors fail on NRZ, but there are a variety of
methods to extract a clock from such messes.

...Jim Thompson

Minor detail. Actually if you have data that "jitters" by 10-20T then
you probably need to have a fast clock extraction loop that gives you a
nice clean digital clock followed by a clock regeneration loop that can
stand the huge phase difference, because all the edge detection schemes
are digital, and all the clock extraction schemes have some very analog
properties.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

5hinka · Apr 21, 2004

I think you should be surfing for "Clock Extraction".

...Jim Thompson

Im building jitter measurer for 2MBit signal.

--------------
| estimating |
| clock |
--------------
| |
---------- | | -------------
-IN--|Extract. |------ ---------| Phase |
|clock |----------------------------| detector |
---------- ------------

Estimating clock will be in different time periods.
I have already Extracted clock from 2MBit HDB3 signal.
I think that i will estimate clock on PLL changing FPD filter for different
time periods.

The hole problem now is to build Phase detector for such big jitter.

Falk Brunner · Apr 21, 2004

"5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c66n5p$gsl$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...

Estimating clock will be in different time periods.
I have already Extracted clock from 2MBit HDB3 signal.
I think that i will estimate clock on PLL changing FPD filter for
different
time periods.

The hole problem now is to build Phase detector for such big jitter.

Simple. Use a 4 bit counter for incomming clock and local VCO. So the
compare frequency is then 1/16. With the normal Phase detector with a
working range of one period (T), you have a 16 T working range on the
desired frequency.

Regards
Falk

Allan Herriman · Apr 22, 2004

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:48:15 +0200, "5hinka" <anonim99@poczta.wp.pl>
wrote:

How to build a phase detector??
I know that normal design is two flip-fops and NAND gate but it works only
with phase difference between signals smaler than 1 (T). How could I
possibly build a phase detector when phase difference between signals is up
to 10-20 (T)?? It could be hole digital or digital/analog solution.
Anybody know any suitable links??
Greetings
5hinka

The huge jitter only occurs at low frequencies.

Firstly, let's fix the terminology. Your 'T' is more commonly
referred to as a Unit Interval (UI) when measuring jitter on a 2Mbit/s
circuit.

According to ITU-T G.823 (and a few others), the maximum tolerable
jitter on an E1 is 1.5UIp-p in the band 20Hz - 2400Hz, and 0.2UIp-p in
the band 18kHz - 100kHz. Other specs indicate that the jitter /
wander may be as high as 18us p-p (36.8UIp-p) in the band from (1/1
day) to 0.8138Hz. (If you draw this on a graph, there's a nice
-20dB/decade slope between the segments.)

Since you are making test equipment, you should be able to generate
and measure jitter with a higher amplitude than this, say by at least
6dB. Your 10-20 UI figure sounds reasonable, but only at mid
frequencies.

I suggest that a more reasonable specification for test equipment
would be:

80 UIp-p, for frequencies up to 0.81Hz
3 UIp-p, for frequencies between 20Hz and 18kHz
0.4 UIp-p, for frequencies greater than 18kHz.

I assume you are tracking the incoming phase with a PLL. If the PLL
has a loop bandwidth of > 1.5 * 18kHz, the phase detector inside the
PLL will never see a phase difference of more than 2 UI p-p, which
means that a standard phase detector can be used without going outside
its linear range.

Regards,
Allan.

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